How to RP a Death Knight

Ephitos wrote:Alright, so all the emotion related questions have been answered. I know this WILL sound stupid, but I don't think Death Knights should be affected by Cathedral square. It should give them a natiuos and an uncomfortable feeling, but we are not vampires. And neither are we "evil". The Light seems to target those that are "evil". But Are we defined as evil? I would argue we are now just supporters of Stormwind, or will be, or want to be.. <grumble>,
But the point is, what logic is there for the cathedral to damage death knights? We are not servants of the big guy anymore, and neither to we go around murdering babies in there sleep. So why should we be afraid of the cathedral? Our powers are obviously diminished because we use dark/shadow/unholy powers to aid us, but then again are we still not able swordsmen?
That's just my opinion and really doesn't add up personally,
Also, How in the hell does "Holy water" work?
What do you define as holy water? the river ? The sea ? The water "blessed" by an NPC, it just doesn't make sense to me. And to conclude, Why the fuck should holy water burn through armor?
With love
Ephitos.

The same logic that governs the Forsaken (which, in my mind, has become fubar) should govern the Death Knights in my mind.

Ephitos wrote:Alright, so all the emotion related questions have been answered. I know this WILL sound stupid, but I don't think Death Knights should be affected by Cathedral square. It should give them a natiuos and an uncomfortable feeling, but we are not vampires. And neither are we "evil". The Light seems to target those that are "evil". But Are we defined as evil? I would argue we are now just supporters of Stormwind, or will be, or want to be.. <grumble>,
But the point is, what logic is there for the cathedral to damage death knights? We are not servants of the big guy anymore, and neither to we go around murdering babies in there sleep. So why should we be afraid of the cathedral? Our powers are obviously diminished because we use dark/shadow/unholy powers to aid us, but then again are we still not able swordsmen?
That's just my opinion and really doesn't add up personally,
Also, How in the hell does "Holy water" work?
What do you define as holy water? the river ? The sea ? The water "blessed" by an NPC, it just doesn't make sense to me. And to conclude, Why the fuck should holy water burn through armor?
With love
Ephitos.

First of all, light magic does not understand good and evil, it's cool with being used by undead (but it's pain!) and demons(even if they are inside humans). But light magic is considered the weakness of necromancy, I could throws out some theories on it but nobody is waiting on that but i'll put down one. The theory that light magic works on undead bodies in a crazy way like "radiation" on a living being(depending exactly on how leper gnomes they might be opposites even!).

And I don't think holy water can melt through armor unless it's undead armor as in formerly living >.> Best thing you could hope for if using it is either that it goes through a small opening in the amor, but I'd try to go for the eyes!

I don't know about humans, but MOONWELL water does indeed burn undead NPCs as seen in this quest. The quest giver says that the water from the moonwell is the LIQUID FIRE of ELUNE >:].

As for humans, I think they bless their water the same way priests irl too: say stuff over normal water.

Ephitos wrote:Alright, so all the emotion related questions have been answered. I know this WILL sound stupid, but I don't think Death Knights should be affected by Cathedral square. It should give them a natiuos and an uncomfortable feeling, but we are not vampires. And neither are we "evil". The Light seems to target those that are "evil". But Are we defined as evil? I would argue we are now just supporters of Stormwind, or will be, or want to be.. <grumble>,
But the point is, what logic is there for the cathedral to damage death knights? We are not servants of the big guy anymore, and neither to we go around murdering babies in there sleep. So why should we be afraid of the cathedral? Our powers are obviously diminished because we use dark/shadow/unholy powers to aid us, but then again are we still not able swordsmen?
That's just my opinion and really doesn't add up personally,
Also, How in the hell does "Holy water" work?
What do you define as holy water? the river ? The sea ? The water "blessed" by an NPC, it just doesn't make sense to me. And to conclude, Why the fuck should holy water burn through armor?
With love
Ephitos.

The Light doesn't distinguish between good and evil. It distinguishes between the holy and unholy, the faithful and the unfaithful. Just hanging around the Cathedral shouldn't be 'damaging', it should just feel very uncomfortable if not even minutely painful to the undead. Sure, they can go near/inside it if they must, but it feels 'wrong'. It hurts. It's not something they'd like to do if they can avoid it.

The Light doesn't care how virtuous you are. You are a being created by unholy powers, fueled by unholy powers. With great willpower, an undead being could wield it or be healed by it, but it burns like righteous fire if it touches them.

And Holy Water is water that has been blessed with the Light. It shouldn't burn through armor, but it should be searing and extremely painful for the undead.

The undead shouldn't hang around the Cathedral, or any holy sight, because there is a sense of wrongness, of pain, that will affect them for as long as they are near it. It's tolerable if you've got business there, but if you're just going there to yap yap yap, there's no point in suffering through it.

I find many things about Death Knights interesting, but this part... Is something all seem to deny being possible... A DK, with light.. Now..:

Nax: Four horsemen:

The most powerful death knights within Naxxramas are the four horsemen. They represent the pinnacle of Kel'Thuzad's guard. The first, Thane Korth'azz, holds the power of flame. The next, Lady Blaumeux, calls forth the power of shadows, drawing the souls of the living into the voracious embrace. Sir Zeliek, a paladin in life, so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle. The final death knight, Lord Mograine, was the finest warrior that the death knights had ever seen. However, after the events of Azeroth, he vanished without a trace. Kel'Thuzad has appointed Baron Rivendare in his place.

I have not met anyone, or seen anyone ( I did not read every previous post throughoutly) Who actually Admits that hey.. Lorewise, lorewise Death knights CAN wield light . So.. After having that off my chest, I will wait for all the reasons of why they can not.. While the game clearly shows.. It is possible.. *leans back and gets some popcorn*

Wasn't he the self hating one? And I thought we already went through that yes, undead can use light. But the question is, could he use anything else that Acherus DK's can, like diseases, shadow and frost magic?

Sir Zeliek is an undead paladin who seemingly resisted being turned into a Death Knight like the other Horseman due to his powerful faith. Sir Zeliek is located in Naxxramas. He is killable in the Four Horsemen encounter.

It seems as though Sir Zeliek managed to retain his sanity despite Kel'Thuzad's corruption, but still his body obeys the Lich King's lieutenant. This could be seen as a mark of great spirituality and mental strength on the part of the paladin.

Based on his white color scheme and the wings on his helmet (signifying victory), Sir Zeliek is most likely based on the first Rider of the Apocalypse, the White Rider of Conquest.

Edit: He is both a Death knight and he's not

I consider Sir Z a lorelol, created by the needs of having to have a different school of spelldamage than shadow in the specific encounter.

Still. Light comes to those those who believe firmly in their cause, death knights obviously like shown here do not differ from that fact. And there are so many that despite of this, seems to be unwilling to face the fact that there is nothing actually wrong with a dk believeing or wielding light. Stated or not. This is not the first thread where this fact has been pointed out on this very forum^^ So that is why the need to repost the fact is here:P ( I did not do it the first time^^).

I do not however say that it would be natural for all Dk's to go around worshipping the light and what not. But its possible. And there is no reason in my eyes to why a Dk could not, lets say enter the cathedral of light..

This subject is as "bad" as: Why can not people rp vampires in world of warcraft? - Well there are actually "vampires" in world of warcraft but stating people can walk around rping it, sure why not.. Will they be able to pull it off well, doubtful in most scenarioes and cases..

Can people rp dragons in world of warcraft? Yes, they actually can rp dragons in humanform for example.. Will it be done well in most cases, no..

But this on going topic making, discussion of DK's that keeps coming and coming:P Well, I wish people would recall that rp is about having fun, letting others have their fun.. And as long as things dont go way over the line, then well. Let people have their fun.



Saali: I consider Sir Z a lorelol, created by the needs of having to have a different school of spelldamage than shadow in the specific encounter.


- Lorelol or not.. I know the lore differs a lot from the game. But for as long as this is a game, things needs
to be adjusted/changed. Just like one does when making any other game or even movies.. The problem is, it is there,
meaning it should be possible. And I am not a deeply lore addicted person, still I try my best to check things out.
And reading how lol it is, hearing it; I do not rp a dk my self, I did so for like 15 minutes the other night and had no issues, how ever the argument over lolrp, lorer*** and god knows what, has gone on for so long that I can not see why people even bother to rp them considering how much hell they seem to be getting. Which I find sad. The general population does not seem to entirely have come to terms with the Draenei yet either.. Will it take as long for us to even bare to see the sight of a dk? Or can we mature up all of us, take the game for what it is and let people rp these new things without going nuts?
Or can we just jump to the entire worgen stuff right away, let the dks like the draenei get some breathing space?^^ As the "lolrp" draenei did not get a major break until the dk's arrived..

Drustai:

The Light doesn't distinguish between good and evil. It distinguishes between the holy and unholy, the faithful and the unfaithful. Just hanging around the Cathedral shouldn't be 'damaging', it should just feel very uncomfortable if not even minutely painful to the undead. Sure, they can go near/inside it if they must, but it feels 'wrong'. It hurts. It's not something they'd like to do if they can avoid it.

The Light doesn't care how virtuous you are. You are a being created by unholy powers, fueled by unholy powers. With great willpower, an undead being could wield it or be healed by it, but it burns like righteous fire if it touches them.

And Holy Water is water that has been blessed with the Light. It shouldn't burn through armor, but it should be searing and extremely painful for the undead.

The undead shouldn't hang around the Cathedral, or any holy sight, because there is a sense of wrongness, of pain, that will affect them for as long as they are near it. It's tolerable if you've got business there, but if you're just going there to yap yap yap, there's no point in suffering through it.


- I used to agree with that to be honest, but considering the fact that the light does not distinguish, the light comes to those who firmly believes in it, then how can a dk wield Holy light and then just walk into the Cathedral feeling uncomfy, as if it stings etc..
That doesnt make much sense to me.. I know I can light my cigarette, wield the flame of the lighter and not get stung unless I touch it, but this is far from that.. If I was of holy light, could use holy light then it makes little sense to me that a place of holyness would make me, uncomfy one bit.. I would find it more realistic thatit would make me feel more "at home" instead...

Maybe it's the guilt that some dk's feel that keeps them from being able to use the light. The dk would have to accept fully what he has become and move past things like regret and self hatred that he could have.

Maybe it could be that not all dk's have the right mindset to deal with both the light corruption as the necromancy corruption.

Well, yes perhaps he's a unique snowflake that came to be through unique circumstances.
As for players RPing vampires, dragons or whatnot using the "you can't prove me wrong" arguement, I'd say this: We have to draw a line somewhere, and realise that absence of evidence is not proof, or everything will just deteriorate into stuff like "You can't prove that there isn't a portal from the Dragonlance world to Azeroth, so my lvl 58 DK who hangs out at the Cath Square is infact Lord Soth. Raistlin is busy raiding but he says hi!".

We have to have a framework that's mostly agreed to, or lol will happen.

Despite what people tried to tell me earlier in this topic, I do not hate DK rp, but I sigh ever so deeply at most of the people who rps a DK. There's a rather big difference between the two that people somehow missed.

As for the draenei animosity, I understand that it largely comes down to one or two persons that were amongst the first draenei rp'ers. I weren't on DB during TBC though, so I can't know for sure.

Well, a good dragon that's in human form would never let anyone else know he's a dragon unless it's very important. And vampire? "Bal'a dash San'layn filth, how about you take a good look at my sword?" The San'layn are the closest thing I believe there is to a vampire in WoW and they are scourge. You are asking for a one way ticket to Ashtown.

As for players RPing vampires, dragons or whatnot using the "you can't prove me wrong" arguement, I'd say this: We have to draw a line somewhere, and realise that absence of evidence is not proof, or everything will just deteriorate into stuff like "You can't prove that there isn't a portal from the Dragonlance world to Azeroth, so my lvl 58 DK who hangs out at the Cath Square is infact Lord Soth. Raistlin is busy raiding but he says hi!".

I agree one needs to draw the line yes... I have no idea how many people I have "met" throughout the years who was either possessed by Illidan or the son of... etc. To me thats wrong.

But dks, being treated like former HW vampires aka holy water etc.. Is to me more wrong, than right.. Undead, hordeside, if I am not wrong they start of in a chapel like thing. There is a lot of "holy places" with evil lurky beings downstairs, graveyards etc = to me holy too. So.. why would an undead priest wake up in an old abandoned chapel like building if that was so bad. As if we are to treat Dk's like old fashioned vampires from the movies, should we not then also not allow undead to be anywhere near holy ground without responding in the exact same way?


+ the dragon + vampire writing was to show the difference here. Dks yes.. Vampires and dragons no thanks.
= I can not wait to ignore all the twilight incoming werewolf+vampire drama... I will find some popcorn and giggle or find myself something that makes me unable to read/see/hear about it.

I'd imagine that most of the chapels and crypts in Tirisfal Glades are in various states of desecration ^^

Common fantasy lore states that the more powerful an undead is, the more weaknesses they have (or their one weakness gets amplified accordingly).
With that in mind, I'd imagine that DKs could be hurt quite bad by stuff like holy water and would feel rather unwelcome in places of worship, while a common forsaken might feel a slight sting compared.
But that is, of course, merely conjecture.

Holy water on Dk's isn't because they are treated like vampires, it is because Holy water damages undead. And old churches being used by forsaken, it's possible unless "once holy, always holy" is the rule.

Saali wrote:As for players RPing vampires, dragons or whatnot using the "you can't prove me wrong" arguement, I'd say this: We have to draw a line somewhere, and realise that absence of evidence is not proof, or everything will just deteriorate into stuff like "You can't prove that there isn't a portal from the Dragonlance world to Azeroth, so my lvl 58 DK who hangs out at the Cath Square is infact Lord Soth. Raistlin is busy raiding but he says hi!".

We have to have a framework that's mostly agreed to, or lol will happen.

Every RP newbe, could understand that Dragonlance is a total different story and not part of the Warcraft series.
Better yet, I never heard of it before, untill I read Knaak's profile at the end of a Warcraft novel...
Besides, we can't draw a line, wich isn't drawn by Blizzard...'Cause that would be changing Blizzard's intentions to our liking and not as it is meant to be, from their point of view.
Blizzard develops the game and fundaments of the story-line, we consume it and use these fundaments for our RP.
Therefor, a lot more is actually possible then we allow each other. Whatever you RP, search it out according to Blizzards guidelines and in fact, you'll be fine and settled.

For every new "official" thing you can RP, like Draenei, DK or Worgen, Blizzard makes sure you can have enough stuff to deal with to RP it out as they meant it. The unofficial playable things, like Vampires and Dragons, you risk it yourself to make something of it. Therefor seek out every possible -official- Blizzard source, to get an idea of how to RP like such.

I've agreed with DK's being officially undead and litterly undead, because after Drustai's clear summary of Blizzard's -own- work. To use an example.
WoW-wiki just isn't a trusted source, to use for everything. And yes I keep saying that, because if you think logically, WoW-Wiki can be edited by anyone. Even mentally disturbed people
Therefor, I usually go to the lore given on wow.com/wow-europe.com and the Warcraft novels. The novels are very well trusted, because Metzen himself checks them first, before agreeing with bringing it out. Check out Metzen's reactions, in the Warcraft Archive book, on the writers for example.

Oh and btw, if we look at the Warcraft 2 DK's, they get badly hurt, if not totally killed, through a paladin's excorsism.
So Light power, definately burns a Death Knight. 'Cause in the end, Warcraft 2 DK or WoW playable DK, they're all made with the same nercromatic power.

Yet, I've been in a rp guild that Dalamar of said Dragonlance world suddenly applied to (yes, he was declined :/).

Blizzard have already drawn a rather firm line, in that you cannot select a vampire class or dragon race.
That is the line that we should be adhering to while agreeing on logical exceptions to it, such as Gurubashi trolls, Lordaeron humans or what have you.

Ajina wrote:Still. Light comes to those those who believe firmly in their cause, death knights obviously like shown here do not differ from that fact. And there are so many that despite of this, seems to be unwilling to face the fact that there is nothing actually wrong with a dk believeing or wielding light. Stated or not. This is not the first thread where this fact has been pointed out on this very forum^^ So that is why the need to repost the fact is here:P ( I did not do it the first time^^).

I do not however say that it would be natural for all Dk's to go around worshipping the light and what not. But its possible. And there is no reason in my eyes to why a Dk could not, lets say enter the cathedral of light..

But dks, being treated like former HW vampires aka holy water etc.. Is to me more wrong, than right.. Undead, hordeside, if I am not wrong they start of in a chapel like thing. There is a lot of "holy places" with evil lurky beings downstairs, graveyards etc = to me holy too. So.. why would an undead priest wake up in an old abandoned chapel like building if that was so bad. As if we are to treat Dk's like old fashioned vampires from the movies, should we not then also not allow undead to be anywhere near holy ground without responding in the exact same way?

Because they are undead. Undead feel discomfort by the holy forces. This is a common fantasy theme that applies often in WoW, too. DKs should be discomforted by being near holy locations. Note, an active church is a holy location, while one that has been desecrated and ruined by neglect and disuse is just a building... hence why the Forsaken use certain churches just fine, yet the Death Knights lose all their might when assaulting the run-down yet actively utilized Light's Hope Chapel. It is the USE of the church that determines its holiness. When a church is treated as a 'house of the Light', then it will physically discomfort undead.

I know people don't like to pull out the vampire references, but frankly, some are not only useful but even needed when RPing Death Knights (afterall, they feed on other's life energies, too. Just they do it through siphoning it through their painful deaths than through sucking on their blood... the endless hunger for energies is still there). In VtM, there was something called 'True Faith'. That merely brandishing a holy symbol to a vampire would not harm it, but if the individual holding it actually had great faith and will, THEN the holy symbol was extremely damaging. Just like a church that is just a building has no power, but one that is used by the faithful and holy WILL. It varies. Holy locations or objects are holy not because of their construction or their name, but because of the faith and good will of the people who use them.

Therefore, with my Death Knight, I heavily play into the fact that holy things wound her. She does not approach churches or the Naaru unless she absolutely has to. She shies away from holy relics, even feels discomfort at the mere touch of a paladin or priest. She feels uncomfortable in the sunlight, or a full moon (these things appear to be holy, going by Tauren and Night Elf philosophy, and it is clear in undead areas such as Icecrown that the undead prefer complete darkness). Last night, when RP had us banishing an evil spirit that had possessed a guild member, my own character became nauseous and weak, as the banishing was wounding her too due to the holy might being drawn forth.

That is what makes playing such a character so interesting. To ignore these things takes a LOT out of the role. Death Knights (and Forsaken) aren't supposed to be normal. We're undead, with all the strengths and weaknesses that go with it. We do not tire, we move with unholy speed and might, we do not sleep, do not need to feed (except on the living), do not age. Yet we cower before the Holy Light, before the divine. We burn in righteous fire. Thematically, these are things that should be acknowledged.

- I used to agree with that to be honest, but considering the fact that the light does not distinguish, the light comes to those who firmly believes in it, then how can a dk wield Holy light and then just walk into the Cathedral feeling uncomfy, as if it stings etc..
That doesnt make much sense to me.. I know I can light my cigarette, wield the flame of the lighter and not get stung unless I touch it, but this is far from that.. If I was of holy light, could use holy light then it makes little sense to me that a place of holyness would make me, uncomfy one bit.. I would find it more realistic thatit would make me feel more "at home" instead...

If a Death Knight wielded the Light (which they can, just as any Forsaken can), it burns them just as much as if they were being healed by it from someone else. Undead that use the Light because they have great faith NEED great faith to actually wield it because it BURNS them when they do. It doesn't 'not sting'. It stings a LOT. Most are NOT going to put up with that to use the Light, except for a handful of very, very dedicated ones.

See the following dev quote as proof:

"Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself." -Bornakk

I do not consider Sir Zeliak a lorelol because of that. His body is not his own, his body acts as the Lich King commands even as his mind rests in eternal agony behind it. And yet, even in his suffering, he does not lose his faith. He continues to use the Light, and every time he uses the Light, it burns him terribly. The only lorelol thing about him is that he uses the Light against the other players--you would think that if it was his tortured, good mind using it, that the last thing he would be doing is using it against the players.

Now that was a darn good reply:D And built upon fact rather than people going on saying: No nothing of the kind is possible:)