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Why I hate Role-play.

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Cathee Norris
Ephitos / Amarachus
Cyaska
Feydor
Gunnell
Torukan
Swan Emperor Arenfel
Antistia
Cadoc
Muzjhath
itsy
Shaelyssa
Kristeas Sunbinder
Mordazan
Chase - Esou
Gogol
Meralynn / Ashla
Krogon Devilstep
John Helsythe Amaltheria
Jeanpierre
Nathiniós
Elloa
Braiden
Melnerag
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Post by Melnerag Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:25 am

I've been on the defias from, well, the beginning and have always tried to improve my skills as a role-player and an event-maker, and now it is first time when I reached a point where I can say that I do see what step to take next, but do not dare to make it.

At the end of the day, just like IRL, most characters tend to be passive and avoid taking grand risks and pushing themself to exertion unless forced to by circumstances. In the end, good Role-play comes to be when either the event-maker or more active characters 'hit the right string' and stir more passive characters to respond. Good story will only occur when characters, and players, are touched emotionally by what happens.

You can make an event where you explore some ancient tomb, but I always found those to be mostly hollow unless characters involved talk a lot, present conflicting views and challenge each other's ideas. You can stage a crime, but in the end the guard that comes to solve it simply does 'his duty'. Stormwind Civil War and Duskwood Campaign were great events exactly for that reason: they staged something so shocking that it forced a response from others and made people want to get involved, and once involved unable to 'quit' since much was at stake for them. Just like in a semi-good book or a movie.

I can say with some confidence that it will not take me a lot of effort to think of some minor, easy-to-pull event that will provide sufficient spin-off and stir the community. Sadly, any such conflict will be dramatic (in a good way) and very intense, and will always have winners and losers. If I were to take the Chapter to do a 'Grand Questionable Act' that will cause a lot of Role-play, we will end hated, trialed and exiled. If a single character were to stir something, he too will end up hated, captured and executed.

The reason I feel so hateful, is because it feels that any good story with a satisfying ending that makes sense will involve one party being forced to disband their guild, delete their character or at the very least go through a very steep character-arc and be forced to change the concept a lot. Who was a corrupt noble at the beginning of the event, will probably be an outlawed bandit hiding in the woods at the end.

So, yes, this is one of those Exaythesque threads, so feel free to comment, discuss and bash me for my ideas.
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Post by Braiden Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:13 am

Exaythe wrote:Sadly, any such conflict will be dramatic (in a good way) and very intense, and will always have winners and losers. If I were to take the Chapter to do a 'Grand Questionable Act' that will cause a lot of Role-play, we will end hated, trialed and exiled. If a single character were to stir something, he too will end up hated, captured and executed.
Even tough events and acts that is of that scale may cause you to "loose" (I would not say that is the best word tough since for me RP is not about winning or loosing), in the end it is up to how you make the character and how much you are willing to risk to make your own and others RP experience exiting. Frankly turning concepts can a lot of times be a good thing even tough it may end up in another direction then you thought when you started out since character development is what RP is about in my book. If I would decide to play a character that risks a lot by being of questionable ethics or even purely evil then I would walk the line all the way (but that's just me).
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Post by Elloa Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:51 am

I agree with you Exaythe, but that's why there is OOC discussion before to host events. If an event or a "story line" can endenger the life of a character, the player need to be aware about it OOC, and agree with it.

I for example don't want to lose Elloa, and I'll not put her in any RP where she could die for real. It doesn't interest me to see her dead. So I'll not agree to be involved in any story where she could lose her life.


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Post by Nathiniós Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:15 pm

The biggest issue with WoW rp is the lack of a DM/GM, a la tabletop rp.

That, and most people don't portray a character, but rather play themselves with pointy ears/green skin/tusks etc.

Tl;dr: People are scared to portray a character to it's fullest because of the consequenses.
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Post by Jeanpierre Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:56 pm

A very interesting topic. I made some similar observations myself. I think I can relate to what you are saying but I don't think it's necessarily as black and white.

You say it takes little effort to think of some minor, easy-to-pull event that provides sufficient spin-off for the whole community. I can confidently say I hear a few of such ideas several times a week. I don't mean this in an offense manner at all, but I often get the impression there are many people out there with ideas designed "to shake up the whole server muahaha!" but in the end the ideas don't cut it. Partly because the event is too centric around their own RP and partly because the other people on the server are also too caught up in their own RP. I too find myself facing that challenge.

For example, and this is not meant as an offense at all, the Crimson Flame wrecks havoc in Stormwind .. yet again. Do I treat the slaughter and blood everywhere as something shocking or do I shrug it off and walk on, doing some RP that could have more meaning to my own character? Do I really want to risk my character's life by engaging into combat with them, as I -should- or do I try a different approach since.. well.. they certainly don't seem eager to let their characters die either despite causing several situations that do risk it.

What you get is a dilemma. On one hand people don't mind playing along, but they don't want to face the consequences for RP that isn't "theirs". Imagine you are building up your character and story for months. Would you let your character die by a random thug in the street? I don't. Even though some of us play more 'down to earth' characters, we all chose to be heroes of our own little story. Even if it is only a baker, you still want him to die in his role of a baker, and not because he just happened to stumbled on a rock and had a nasty fall that cracked his skull.

Never the less, I can also say that I agree with some of your remarks. At least, when I read them, I sensed the following message (please correct me if I'm wrong):
- Nobody takes on a bold move that could end up having severe consequences. This could mean a guild being destroyed or a character.
- If one makes a bold move, it stirs up a lot of hatred and conflicts.

On one hand everyone wants to be king of the hill, but nobody wants it to involve too many negative consequences for their RP. The problematic nature of this is that this mindset is itself a negative spiral for RP. But on the other hand, if everything is placed on the line every time somebody gets a bold idea then you are killing RP just the same. Should every guard die every time a criminal organization has a fit? Then why even bother RP'ing a guard with anything above level 1?
Without consistency or ability to keep anything standing, why even bother setting up councils, or guilds, or work out back ground stories and invest tremendous amounts of work in settings if anyone that isn't even remotely connected to you can break it all to bits with a bold idea?
Heck, we can all just roll level 1 alts and play without FlagRSP or any story for that matter. There will be no questions asked if we die then.

To summarize my rant here... I think the stakes are too often too big for reasons that aren't worth the consequences.

As for me personally, I have been searching actively for ways of getting around this problem. These are the ideas I've come up with myself:
- More base level, 'no high stakes' RP. Sure, I don't mind my character dying in a civil war. But let that civil war be the finale of months of intriguing RP and individual story lines. MONTHS. Not 2 days and a 2 minute speech from the event organizer. I've contacted some people OOCly in this matter to test a few scenarios. So far it's been hailed positively but it has yet to be tested more thoroughly.
- A long term event based guild. You complain about consequences. Well, how many guilds have you seen recruiting people, stating: "Well, yeah, we could end up dying in 4 weeks or a month later". My intention is to some day do exactly that and create stories that actually have a (more or less planned) end.
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Post by John Helsythe Amaltheria Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:38 pm

- A long term event based guild. You complain about consequences. Well, how many guilds have you seen recruiting people, stating: "Well, yeah, we could end up dying in 4 weeks or a month later". My intention is to some day do exactly that and create stories that actually have a (more or less planned) end.

There are lot on another server doing this. With TBC they played agents of the legion. With Wotlk, agents of the scourge. Now, agents of the twilight hammer.

As for Exaythe: I believe that when you create an event like the Duskwood campaign, you should indeed hold OOC discussions like Elloah said.
Perhaps something like: "The Chapter will perform a grand questionable act. This will provide quite some interesting RP to the server. Could you please take it easy on us when we're becoming hated/wanted?"

Afterall, taking consequences isn't bad but they should not kill the concept of a guild either.

"Yes we will slaughter alot of innocent people in Duskwood, but will we not bring awesome RP to the server?" And from there you can discuss the consequences.

One could argue: "IC remains IC. You -must- be executed/exhiled for this."

But then people will indeed drop their great plans and no interesting RP will happen. Well, no interesting Rp on these areas atleast.

-> People should let IC be influenced by OOC in some cases.

That should solve problems and if not, then perhaps you should refrain from such events. (That would make me cry however.)
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Post by Melnerag Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:24 pm

@JP

I was treating 'Big RP' in this thread, so this is not at all related to daily casual RP situations, that indeed are equally fun and should continue.

In my eyes a good Storyline is something that happens over a long period of time, motivates characters to act and accomodates them to play their own character in this story without blatant railroading and is unpredictable, often even to the organizer. A good story will cause spontaneous events to be made, and people will 'play it out' in their daily RP as well. So yes, in that you are completely right JP: a game for high stakes should not take 2 hours, it should be long and immersive. That is why I had no trouble having Imanuel be killed off...in fact the moment Imanuel betrayed Rhebeca to SI;7 and chickened out of an honorable duel with Farglade felt like -death-.

And you got my messeges partially right!
-Bold moves that resonate with the 'audience' and are played for highest stakes provide great stories.
-It is hard to find heart to do them because you know in advance that consequences for you will probably be dire. I will never forget the moment when Kneral betrayed Fortesgue in the Civil War and decided his destiny forever, not to be a promising lighty but a cultist.

At last, just because any such event is started by your character/guild, doesn't mean it is ego-centric. Because well, you will always need a character to start any such bold move and that character must be played by somebody after all Smile. For instance the current conflict between the Chapter and RHS - original cause has long been forgotten, many new 'players' have entered the stage and each fight in their own story which is the spin-off from the original conflict.

@Elloa

OOC communication is hard, since any such story progresses with great spontaneity. You can, at best, discuss the Starting Event. From there things usually take their own turn, and enforcing a certain ending in advance feels very artificial, un-natural and unsatisfying.

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Post by Jeanpierre Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:44 pm

I see your point. Allow to continue a part of mine. You mention the Chapter and RHS situation. Imagine that this, perhaps brilliant, story line now starts to climb to a climatic situation. Would I let it have dire consequences for my character? Probably not since I haven't been part of its buildup. But.. in return I should also acknowledge that my character, however important things are to him, is at best a sideline story of the main story line. As such I have no problem keeping him on a background and contribute with a minor role. This is perhaps too an exercise that is hard sometimes Smile Small roles in a story as sometimes feel insufficiently appreciated... but I keep thinking what Batman stories would be without that kick ass butler Razz

But other than that, I can only encourage a well thought out bold move. I'll gladly be witness or even play on the side for the fun of it. (That peasant that's throwing banana's at the prisoners... It is ME!)
Unfortunately, to some extent the consequences should be arranged as Elloa pointed out. The challenge we face in this is that consequences shouldn't necessarily "reduce" RP but lead to different RP. Oh well. That's nothing new Wink
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Post by Krogon Devilstep Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:27 pm

i've killed off a character for exactly these sorts of reasons Exa. your points are all valid, true and a thumbs up from me for pointing them out!

sadly too many people are clingy to their characters and tend to hunt 'glory' when its undeserved and/or just refuse to die when it seems obvious thats the only course.

tension and unexpected twists are a rare commodity these days.
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Post by Meralynn / Ashla Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:47 pm

As a guard I see your point perfectly well. How many times every week (at least while we were more active) do we get reports about murderers, cultists and other "bad" people? Characters who do things without wanting to face the consequences. Entire guilds gets banned from the city just to show up a week later - forcing us to hunt them down. Guard duty can indeed be both fun and challenging in a good way but it is also a state of banging your head against a wall all the time. Because all those criminals you punish with jailing, lashes and whatever other punishment you have agreed on will not learn but keep committing crimes. Showing up the day after we broke both his legs and walk like normal, because someone magically healed him fully. It never, ever ends and it makes us look like idiots. Smile

As guards we are pretty much forced to take part in all those kinds of events, otherwise we get told that we are not doing our job. Fair enough, that is one of the reasons we are guards, right? We risk our character's lives every day and try our best to give the city a realistic feel. Our characters must be played a certain way, otherwise we risk being accused of corruption and have our guarding rights taken from us.

We would appreciate if more people would plan their events for a long time before executing them, both IC and OOC. And to think of the natural consequenses. If you want to roleplay a vicious murderer you need to agree on having your character executed or punished in other ways. Anyone is welcome to contact us and discuss events that they want us to take part in - but realistically no one should be able to force us into RP that we have no interest in, right?

I could write pages about how I would like RP to be. How I would like nobles to actually despise peasants, how I would like criminals to actually fear the law-enforcers and how I would like people to act realistically. How I would love to play in a world where democracy and equal rights is bullshit as that is what I see as natural for such a setting. But I can not, and should not, tell others how to play or how their characters should behave.

Anyway, I feel I lost track there a bit. I don't mean this as whining in any way but am just trying to tell you the guard's pov. ^^
Interesting topic! Smile
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Post by Guest Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:07 pm

When you focus on conflict RP with Cops vs Robbers, Fanatics vs Cultists or Scarlets vs Everyone rp/events and the sides have to one-up each other in craziness, then it's inevitable that things escalate to the point you described with /gdisbands and whatnot.
Now take what Nath touched upon and add the fact that many still seems to want to "win" these events, and you have what I'd call the fast and flawed sum-up of RP the last year or two on DB.

Now, I do agree that deciding who gets to "win" beforehand is silly, but it might be a good idea to agree to some terms of engagement beforehand, ie, do we really want to kill off characters or guilds in this or that event.
Killing someone should be monumental, it's not something you do because "oh he insulted me" or "oh I'm so fanatic that I got kicked out of the Scarlet Crusade and btw I'm always angry all the time" - Killing characters kills long-term RP.
In my opinion, the short-term conclusion of an event is (almost) never worth a dead character (unless the char was made with that specific purpose in mind, obv.). Y'know, murder is actually illegal bounce !
Hrm. Guess that was more a quip at the "let's kill everyone because I'm right"-crowd.

One thing I never got about the alliance RP is how it ended up being so much conflict driven Cops vs Robbers-style?
There seems to be very few non-conflict events with and they appear to have poor attendence.
Or perhaps I'm just seeing things, heh.

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Post by Gogol Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:28 am

People are to attached to their characters. Period.
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Post by Chase - Esou Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:36 am

Gogol wrote:People are to attached to their characters. Period.

This pretty much. I feel there's too much boring, tedious -work- you have to do with every character, be it in RP having to introduce the character to all the characters of the people you tend to RP with, or the more common PvE work of levelling etc, to throw it away for an event or such.

I used to get attached to my characters too much, but I started trying to put my attachment to an idea rather to the character itself. I try to think of the backstory of a new character, but I put just as much thought into how I want it to develop as RP progresses and what the end goal is. I think to achieve the most satisfying RP is to always be open to the idea that your character won't remain the same, or even be around for all that much longer. This is just a hint for anyone who might experience the same issue, mind. :>
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Post by Mordazan Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:06 am

Saali wrote:
One thing I never got about the alliance RP is how it ended up being so much conflict driven Cops vs Robbers-style?
There seems to be very few non-conflict events with and they appear to have poor attendence.


I'll start out by saying that I find the above very provoking. This is because I believe that all (good?) RP comes from and is related to conflict (see other posts, my blog or PM me for elaboration).

I do understand that there are RP events where you can meet and say "hey... Nice weather..." etc., but I just don't consider that in depth or important for the character. In general, I feel that when you might aswell be offline, I don't consider it (good/real?) roleplay.
For instance when your character is buying food. We assume that all characters do this on a somewhat daily basis, but it isn't important for us to RP it out. There is no character development, no (real?) roleplay in walking up to a person, saying "Hey, I want to buy that fish, here's the money, have a good day".
Because it isn't conflict driven.
As soon as you add conflict to the situation (if your character is terribly afraid of leaving his home, or is very poor and willing to steal food if needed etc.) then it becomes interresting and your character develops on behalf of what happends. IE you cannot be offline while this transpires.

When two lighties talk about light philosophy and basically agree. One put forth a statement, the other agrees. The other puts forth a statement, the other agrees. There is nothing here that shows what kind of individuals the two characters are and nothing that confronts or develops their personalities.
When they harshly disagree and argue over their religious ways and fight for what they believe in, it becomes clear what kind of characters they are (how devoted to their beliefs? How willing are they to accept other views? How far will they go to defend what they believe in? etc.) and it challanges a basic trait on the character (what being a lightie means) and possibly develop the character (they understand a new point of view; They become more firmly attached to their beliefs; They develop a IC hate for the other fraction; They want to investigate further etc.)

In none of the above examples death are involved - however, they're still conflict driven.
Your point about cops-and-robbers roleplay is perfectly valid, and when Gogol states that people get attached to their characters that is very true aswell, however that does not rule out that to make (real/interresting/relevant/good) roleplay, conflict is simply required. It can still be peaceful and have agreement, but it still needs conflict (for example when lighties talk about how to assault a cultist hideout - they may all agree, but there is an obvious conflict between them and the cultists).

I think that very few roleplayers know and accepts the fact that conflict does a lot for roleplay (wether you're as "radical" as me or not) and that is why people start to whine to hell as soon as ""drama"" happends.

On a sidenote, I've lead the Sphere for quite a while, and I have yet to experience this whole "drama" thing that everyone is so upset about and nobody have really explained it to me. I view in character conflicts (even attempts on my life that isn't agreed upon!) as a roleplay oppertunity. Ofcourse there have been problems with Spherites being arrested without being given a trial or such, but after a nice talk with the captors things have always worked out, people tend to be reasonable when I'm being reasonable.

Nonetheless this "drama" fear is what strangles roleplay and initiatives as they come to life. I don't believe that TDS could be allowed to live if it came to be today. I mean, cultists running around duskwood? They're kidnapping people, torturing, doing evil rituals, being obviously evil... I simply don't think it could come to be. There'd be a batallion of whine on the boards saying "their RP sucks" or "they can't roleplay that way!" or "unrealistic fuckers" etc.

I think Exaythe's point is very valid and I understand (and for some part share) the frustration.

PS: I am not intending to hijack this thread. If someone wants to discuss how the Sphere have experienced drama, how it would be if TDS started today or how conflict spawns roleplay, start a new thread or feel free to PM me Smile

Edit: Just as a note, this isn't an assault on you saali, but your statement simply provoked me (unintended, no doubt!) to write this Smile
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Post by Kristeas Sunbinder Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:17 am

While I can't say I disagree that going to buy food isn't a big character development. But maybe it turns out your character is a real cheapskate when it comes to fish. I believe "The devil is in the details" might fit here.
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Post by Guest Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:26 am

Nono, that was intended to provoke further discussion of it, so that's just jolly ^^

However, I disagree that all RP must be rooted in conflict or it's trivial.
There has been many such non-conflict events in the past, but not lately in the same scale.

I just wonder why that is so.

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Post by Meralynn / Ashla Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:58 am

I disagree. Buying fish can be incredibly giving. Maybe the fishmongler turns out to be that prince charming? Or maybe an old friend? Or, what the heck, maybe someone who has never seen RP before sees you and thinks "Wow! that looks like fun I think I'll try that RP thing after all! Very Happy " and wouldn't that be a nice treat?

I somehow agree that conflict, big or small, is often both fun and giving. But to me the small everyday events is what really makes it feel intriguing. Spending lots of time on describing exactly how I prefer soup for a prisoner or sharpen my sword is not conflict-RP, yet it gives me and the others around a feeling that things are really going on, we're not just dolls sitting around staring straight ahead until some conflict pops up.
One of the most character developing times I had had nothing to do with conflict as it was a long, nice chat with a good friend.

So please do not look down on non-conflict RP, it is only what you let it be. Remember that you're the one responsible for your own fun, if you think some RP is dreadfully boring you're free to spice it up. Remember to respect others and keep it IC and some great things can happen! Smile
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Post by Braiden Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:28 pm

Building up relations and alliances can be just as giving as conflict, not to mention that it may be useful should conflict strike. Preforming an experiment that goes bad (or is successful) is another thing that I can find to be nice roleplay on Braiden since it means interacting with my assistants. There is loads of roleplay that is not conflict based and still a nice part of the whole picture tough walking around Stormwind conflict is most likely what you are gonna get (I speak from experience).

While I can't say I disagree that going to buy food isn't a big character development. But maybe it turns out your character is a real cheapskate when it comes to fish. I believe "The devil is in the details" might fit here.
Every part of the whole can be interesting if you make it interesting, now as I play a rather rich and... "nobly" character that usually gets his butler to serve him any meal he might like and buy the food as well I would agree with this. Detail matters, it's what makes a character or breaks it. If you play a character whos only interest is to get into conflicts of various sorts just for the heck of it that gets kind of hollow and frankly on my part boring.

Now I do like conflicts too of course, if there was no conflict at all it would be hollow in another way. People takes risks in real life too and that should be reflected on any realistic character (now by realistic I do not mean someone that isnt a mage, wolf, gnome, cow, has pointy ears and a passion for fashion etc. there might be a better word but you know what I mean).

To sum it up: I think everyday RP should contain all parts not just the conflict RP or for that matter the buying of fish and talking with friends or people from the same organization.
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Post by Shaelyssa Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:07 pm

I completely disagree with you, Mordazan. How can you say something is not "good/real" role-play? What does that even mean? Not everything that's done in-character has to lead to "character development". I think it's very unfair to say that events that are leaned more to the "nice weather" whatever does not add anything to role-play ...

I personally really enjoy the little things that happen in-character. In the grand scemes of thing, yes, I agree with you that there should be some form of conflict somewhere. Although, that's not to say that every single encounter that happens has to center around some form of conflict.
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Post by itsy Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Too much of either one type of rp or the other is boring and leads to no/little character development, in my opinion. It's best to have a balance between the two.
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Post by Muzjhath Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:28 am

I generally feel that it is during the "relaxing"/no conflict parts of roleplay that your character actually develop. When talking about the contents of Mordazan's post. Yes, it develops based on the conflicts its met. But a lot of the time during those events there is little to no time to actually develop the character. Too much is going on. So either then you develop the character "offscreen" in generally quite artificial ways. Or you roleplay it all out and feel what's right for the character.

Also, what has been stated is true. People are far to unwilling to let their characters die.
While I really don't want my main to die, and would prefeer something planned. If someone did something and there was no way out of it. Yes, I would have her killed. (I'm not saying I'll let a random bad power emote do it, but rather if I ICly was captured by the Bloodwind Regiment and they killed me. I would play along with that).
I'd miss the character as hell, but I would accept it. I would also accept that it would lead to intresting RP and development among other people's characters.
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Post by Cadoc Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:15 am

Muzjhath wrote:I'd miss the character as hell, but I would accept it. I would also accept that it would lead to intresting RP and development among other people's characters.

This right there. That's how RP should be done. Too often we have people supremely occupied with how everything will affect *their* character, how to develop it, how to make it interesting. And sure, all that is important - if you don't 'take care' of your char, nobody else will. It's important to remember, however, that roleplaying (in MMOs at least) is all about interaction with others.

More than that - it's about giving. That's why we don't make our characters complete badass. It's fun to be one, for sure, that's why singleplayer games always employ them. But is it fun to play WITH one? Not so much. It's the ordinary people, the 'supporting cast' that make the community go round much more than any self-appointed leader.

But I digress. Killing off your character because of the RP it will create for *others* is the best reason to do so, in my humble opinion. I did that with my AoC character a while back, a guy I played for some 2 years and that rose to some prominence amongst the RP community. Was it hard to let him go? Absolutely. But the reactions it sparked, the RP that followed... It was supreme. It may sound funny, but killing off my character was the best RP I ever did.
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Post by Jeanpierre Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:08 am

Cadoc wrote:a guy I played for some 2 years

If we are to keep our characters so killable as others would like it, they wouldn't even last 2 years Wink
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Post by Kristeas Sunbinder Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:09 am

The life expectancy for military organisations would be much lower then ._.
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Post by Antistia Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:18 am

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:The life expectancy for military organisations would be much lower then ._.

Like.. 3 days.. I mean, even political liaisons wouldn't last long... I'd know..
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