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Corruption and magic in roleplay: a discussion

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Geneviève
teirzul
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Magaskawee/Anaei
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Post by Valerias Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:51 pm

Since several of us managed to derail this thread into a rather interesting discussion, I figured I'd continue it here and leave Marogg's quest for a warlock mentor in peace.

A few questions are on the table. One - how tolerated are warlocks in various societies? Two - how do people choose to RP warlocks: what works and what have people found interesting/believable? Three - is it worth trying to put together some sort of 'circle' or casual group of fel and/or shadow users?

To start off with, I took a cursory glance at wowpedia and this quote struck me glaringly: 'Fel magic is pure, evil and arcane; it resides in the blood of demons.'

As such, there's a reason that warlock trainers in Elwynn are hiding out back and such - fel magic is evil. If we're going to discuss human society, then I don't think there is any question that it would be frowned upon. You need demon blood for the practice of fel magic; thus, it's unequivocally drawn from an evil source. Perhaps studying it would be legal, but practising it? I can't see any Light-following society giving that sanction.


Last edited by Aniane/Vale on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Kristeas Sunbinder Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:53 pm

Well, I can't say that warlocks are frowned on in Blood Elf society as long as you treat it like just another tool.
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:38 pm

I would think that the belfs got over their "We can do anything weeeeee!"-teenage rush when they discovered what truly happened to Kael'thas, that is, in his cartoon-villain rush for power, he and his followers ended up being just another set of tools for the demons.

So - I'd imagine that it's more or less mandatory not to prance around the Bazaar with demons following you. Murder Row would be an exception just as the Drag is in Orgrimmar.

Imo, the only place where demons (and ghouls) and their masters shouldn't be flattened on sight would be Undercity.
edit: And even in Undercity, you'd probably see the Kor'kron scribble in their notebooks whenever a warlock and his demon waltzes past ^^

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Post by Lavian Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:08 pm

Right. Before I continue. Fel magic is not shadow magic, only game balance makes it so. This is a major point the majority seems to never notice to which I will clarify this now.

To answer question one: I can only answer for the alliance side as I don't know how the horde handle it but in terms of human society atleast I think that it's obvious they are known and that there is "somewhere" they are being trained. I am under the belief in lore that no one except the warlocks are to know of the location of the coven (Under the lamb) as these are the grounds to which we have only the safest practice within the kingdom. Which is suggested via a quest that anyone outside the coven who dabbles close to its existance is... Dealt with. Of course there seems to be people who walk up and down the place like it was your local church but game restrictions are to blame. I can go deep into the lamb coven discussion itself but this isn't the point.

In general from what I noticed is that Varian acknowledges the work the warlocks have done by a quote in the beta. However we are under the leash of no magic within the city limits with the exception of the lamb grounds. Any dark magic under civilian grounds is deemed to high punishment in my eyes, demon summon magic or otherwise fel magic. I have always followed this belief as let's face it that you wouldn't get away with that in the real world due to the attached weight and let's not forget its originations. Metzan quoted this one well actually about guards seeing warlocks in Stormwind. "OH LOOK, MY GOD ISN'T THAT VOIDWALKER MORE BLUE THAN THE LAST TIME, DEAR?"... Yeah right, whatever.

Question Two - People RP warlocks in variety of ways as which is obvious by now. When I started my warlock nearly six years ago I was under the mentality of a nice warlock who tried to show her demons as friendly beings. Ah the good days of goldshire... However I learned and acknowledged thats NOT a way to look at warlock RP. People can be pretty diverse with warlock RP, as in what they choose to be with it however they should keep in mind with whatever they choose that they should acknowledge consequences are to be made if they make a public spectacle out of their rediculed path of life. Alot lack that understanding and I advise to think on this one point in particular. The good warlocks Roleplayers out there can publicly look like your average citizen while retaining or keeping their presence known to a minimal level, thats the joy of being one, the fact you can be versatile with the feigning of a mask.

I've tried all roads of Warlock RP. Some I regret, some I do not however what I found most fun and believable was the role of a hermit and mentor. To observe and RP a philospher in the lives of the newer generation of warlocks. Thats just me however.

Three: As someone who's been part of circles and ran one for awhile I will admit it can be fun if you have the steam for it. However as I said in the last thread the novelty of being war mongering casters hellbent on destruction and undoing good will just be annoying quick and only thrill a minority of the warlock rp'ers. A circle has a bigger purpose than that. Most just never notice that. Smile

I however do suggest a circle based community should begin to try and revitilise the warlock lore as it is plentiful and diverse to deal with. The things I have seen people create over the years with it have been very interesting and maybe it's about time the warlocks have an actual community to diverse themselves into with like minded people. I would even help out with whoever wants to set one up. Smile

To start off with, I took a cursory glance at wowpedia and this quote struck me glaringly: 'Fel magic is pure, evil and arcane; it resides in the blood of demons.'

That blood is also a drug, a drug that is very potent to the sway of mortal minds. Glee!!!!!

Also I don't see studying it within the stormwind community is particully legal as it as mentions, leads to possibly indulging in it. Smile. I think Varian only remotely acknowledges us because of the other abominable half, the Ebon Blade. Smile

I probs have more littering my mind later but thats off the top.
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Post by Gallandria Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:05 pm

I started my warlock off that Demons was actually corrupting her until she got discoverd and shown that they was corrupting her.


Edit: But yes a nice little warlock group would be good!
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Post by Aleric Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:16 pm

The Society of Dark Arts. For all witches, warlocks and sacrificial goats out there.
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Post by Drustai Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:19 am

Aisling wrote:The Society of Dark Arts. For all witches, warlocks and sacrificial goats out there.

We are not your sacrifices!

Neutral
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Post by Shrogan Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:23 am

Drustai wrote:
Aisling wrote:The Society of Dark Arts. For all witches, warlocks and sacrificial goats out there.

We are not your sacrifices!

Neutral

You're right. Not hers. Mine.

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Post by Drustai Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:37 am

Shrogan wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Aisling wrote:The Society of Dark Arts. For all witches, warlocks and sacrificial goats out there.

We are not your sacrifices!

Neutral

You're right. Not hers. Mine.

There should be more than enough gnomes and small human children for that.

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Post by Mandui Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:23 am

Eira "Snow" Vanimedle wrote:The good warlocks Roleplayers out there can publicly look like your average citizen while retaining or keeping their presence known to a minimal level, thats the joy of being one, the fact you can be versatile with the feigning of a mask.
I have already thought about this while leveling my warlock and decided to have it be my guideline when I finally begin to RP him. I believe it will be quite the interesting experience to RP a guy (yes, it's a male!) who gives a very pleasant first impression, polite and well mannered, while being utterly evil and corrupted inside. As cliché as it may sound, it's something I've never personally experienced before, so maybe that's why I'm so excited about it. Apart from that, I think a full out schizo RAAHR I KEEL U kind of character would indeed get boring rather fast.

As for the circle of meanies, it sounds like a nice idea ^^
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Post by Aleric Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:38 am

On the first question I agree with Melfeena/Ireth/Snow/Ovelia. Flaunting your powers in human society or otherwise making your warlockyness known should result in consequences. Even if it’d be completely legal to practice it on the open streets, Billy and Donna chasing down the streets of the Trade District would have a fright (which is an understatement) if they saw Johan Blackspell in his felweaver regalia along with his infernal bodyguard coming towards them. Not to mention the rest of the citizens. Only one who wouldn’t bat an eye would be Ol’ Emma since she has seen it all.

You will not see felguards next to paladins in the Blade, knocking back drinks. Stormwind City is not Mos Eisley, no matter that it might give evidence of the contrary at times.


Regarding the second question – I think and encourage people to RP warlocks in any way they’d like, without completely going against how things actually work in the lore. To use Melfeena’s example – you can have a well-meaning warlock who try to socialise and/or befriend her demons. Nothing says you can’t. Problem is that people, who know demons are dangerous, will think you clearly insane and call for the guards, if the demons themselves do not take brutal advantage of your naiveté. This is possible but I don’t think the RP or that character will be very long-lived.

Personally I think RPing a warlock without taking advantage of all things associated with them in the lore, and trying to RP something contradictory to it (for whatever reason), is a waste. Of course, just because you pick the class warlock on the character creation screen doesn’t mean you’re a warlock IC but if you choose to be, I encourage people to do some research into the lore. It will make the experience more fun for you and for everyone else.

As for what works and/or is interesting to roleplay – there are as many and more answers as there are people. Characters are people first. Create a fun character first then add the warlock template. Sometimes it doesn’t work and the two clashes but then you revise the concept until it works and you are satisfied.

When creating a warlock character bear in mind that dark magic is powerful and tempting. Anyone, no matter their origin, can be given a reason to reach for it. It’s just a matter of filling in the blanks as it were. You know what kind of person the character is and where she comes from etcetera. And you know you want her to become a warlock and you have done your research so you know what that entails. Now figure out the stuff in between.


@Mandui – The only thing that matters is that you are excited about it since you’re the one who will be around him most of the time.

Finally, I’d like to reiterate what Melfeena said at the beginning of his post. Fel magic is not shadow magic. I strongly encourage people to not think in terms of classes and thus make generalisations.
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Post by Lavian Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:02 am

Think thats my biggest fun of a warlock. We are rocking with the masquarade approach.

EDIT: Waiting on your replay Vale!
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Post by Jayse Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:14 am

Had a good read and to be honest I realised something I hadn't really thought about or noticed before.

The execution of the whole 'masquerade' Rp of being a warlock in society isn't that dissimilar to how i've been Rping SI7. It's like the other side of the coin. You have two select groups of people, both integrated in society as everyday people yet they're in a hidden war against each other that more then likley alot of poeple won't even know about.

Interesting stuff indeed mainly for me as I have never even rolled a warlock ingame at all let alone RP'd one. I won't be anytime soon but I try to read as much lore and figure out archetypes (roughly) as I possibly can.
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Post by Kil'drakor Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:41 am

The best played warlocks are often the Senator Palpatines.

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Post by Jeanpierre Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:06 am

A slightly tangent discussion, but I think if you speak about the 'public performance' and 'consequences' it is relevant to speak of this as well. At least to me personally, the integration of warlocks in the society is the most relevant aspect of this discussion for me.

Eira "Snow" Vanimedle wrote: Metzan quoted this one well actually about guards seeing warlocks in Stormwind. "OH LOOK, MY GOD ISN'T THAT VOIDWALKER MORE BLUE THAN THE LAST TIME, DEAR?"... Yeah right, whatever.

I feel there is a strong disapproval of both the warlock -and- the guards in this quote. You know what? You're right. It is 'bull'! But I can only recommend to RP a guard for two weeks and you learn to be so cynical.

There is a difference between Lore reality and the reality in the game. "Lore reality" is that for every warlock you beat to pulp for showing off his voidwalker, there's one less and other warlocks will think twice before doing so. The reality in the game is that for every remark you make about a voidwalker, another one is summoned, another warlock logs on and comes parading his summoning skills before you, and people shout things like "fanatics", "supression" and "freedom" because apparently the right to preserve one's never broken nose takes priority over stopping magic that could sink the city into oblivion.

The very same thing happened yesterday, on my priest. I asked a DK ICly to get rid of his horrible ghoul -in the damned cathedral!- and guess the reaction?
"Look, he brought friends!" <summon army of ghouls>. And this is from an RP guild. I was hesiting between ignoring the player or whispering his GM for a chat.

Another story I had when I still gave a damn about demons ICly is that people suddenly go "ohh, but.. he ain't mine". *facepalm* Right. So let's kill it! But then the pet runs or flees or the guy owning laughs hard in your face "hahaa, you can't do a damn thing. I'm not associated with it, but I laugh at you for everything you try against this demon!"
People do whatever kind of things that just doesn't work.

The sheer overdose of Lore attrocities you are confronted with in the game makes it hard to make a good call sometimes. One second you're whispering with a criminal who's doing funky things in one of the buildings, and striking a deal OOCly on what can be seen/felt/heard (which was too little), the next second a lol'er comes around who overheard the emotes and [low] talk and shouts murder. The half a dozen proper RP'ers standing around the guard then glare at the guard for ignoring the call and "being a bad guard". (true story Smile)

So, bringing this back to the topic... From the examples I have experienced above, I feel your view on "how warlocks should be treated" isn't workable. What do you think is a more workable solution?
Secondly, if your fel identity gets known, is it gameover? Say someone somewhere sees you create a soulshard and he comes about shouting warlock, how should people react? Aren't you "overexposing" yourselves against the lol's of some poor or intentionally poor roleplayer?

Here's my take on it.. and I don't like this necessarily more than the lore approach, but it proved more 'workable'. My characters do not "understand" fel magic and thus have no way of distinguishing it ICly from any other type of magic. When it handles demon gates and souls, sure.. then he can.
Secondly, any claim from someone else that a person is a warlock is taken with a big grain of salt. "I'll make my own opinion." You don't listen too all idiots on the street do you?
As for pets, I will always ask to put them away and pretend it never happened.
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Post by Lavian Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:11 am

Just to point out my quote. I was backing Metzan up on his comment on why warlocks shouldn't be running around like some do Razz. I'll read the rest later, in class.
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Post by Jeanpierre Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:15 am

Alright Smile
I'm looking forward to the rest of your view. I really like the information on "how to RP" the lock but I'd also like to learn more about "how to deal" with warlock RP.
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Post by Shaelyssa Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:26 am

Warlock rp is lots of fun! My own warlock is an orc: he's completely bonkers and thinks his demons are actually the spirits of his ancestors Razz!!!
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Post by Grufftoof Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:24 am

I have a warlock. But I am Horde. And I currently play Niev a lot more... magey. Like a scholar who dug a little deep (fire mage who happens to have a strange little imp following her around... she read about in a book somewhere).

But I plan on changing that. And making her a troll. More than that... I plan on making her the well... true evil of Gruff. It's something that needs work. But will probably see her/him becoming Affliction (I see that as much more "shadowy").

I do like the idea of playing part of a "Masquerade" style game with locks. Then again, WoD was brilliant.
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Post by Jayse Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:29 am

Anyone played the beta? The main thing I need to know is all this talk of varian perhaps changing his view/attitude towords warlocks and thier arts i've been hearing bits and peices of. Mainly so I can forumulate SI7 reacton towords this and for RP in general.

Any clues?
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Post by Braiden Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:33 pm

Gnash wrote:The best played warlocks are often the Senator Palpatines.
Agreed. That is the kind of warlock concept I like the most myself.

As I said before my opinion on the tolerance is that in general warlocks would be tolerated but not accepted. The base attitude to warlocks and death knights should be quite similar (at least ally side), the demons and/or the undead killed and mutilated your family and friends/your friends family/others of your race and should hardly be trusted unless they give you a VERY good reason for it. This would obviously mean warlocks would not expose themselves unless they have a good reason (or is naive/mad/delusional) since they in difference to the death knights have a choice.

On the track of openly being a warlock (while not summoning demons at the cathedral square and fel fire rains inside your local bar) I believe could work even tough you would end up an outcast either case just like a death knight should. The pure super evil character that goes doing evil things all over the place without caring if they are caught/exposed rarely works regardless of class tough after what I have seen others do.
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Post by Morgeth Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:48 pm

On the Horde side, at least with orcs, warlocks are kind of an integrated part of orc society. The exist, orcs are all aware of this, and they kind of hate them. Warlocks are, and will always be, a reminder of the power the Burning Legion once wielded over the orcs, thus they are "banished" to their little cleft where they sit in circles muttering about the times that were.

I do however imagine orcs to also be a bit hypocritical when it comes to the use of warlocks. Some of them think that the goal achieved is more important than the means to get there, resulting perhaps in that the fel magic can be used in different contexts of battle. I doubt, however, that warlocks will ever be considered highly honourable, since their fighting style is the opposite of the warrior-esque definition of it (ergo; head on, with some fancy battle cry).

I've got the bonus of RP'ing a warlock that's in a powerful position in her own branch of orc society, which I IC can relate to the fact that she - true to her class - found the most powerful orc she could interact with and seduced him. Or well, there's a mush love story too, but what I mean is that RP'ing a warlock who's "open" about their fel affinity and still maintain a position of power feels a bit strange at times. Then again, anyone who doubts it IC usually gets the old terror and fear treatment, but I sometimes think that if I wasn't an officer OOC - so to speak - then perhaps I would've been overthrown a long time ago.

At any rate, I think warlocks in the human society have to hide, or they'll meet with the consequences. Warlocks in orc society don't have to hide, but they can never be expected to be treated any better than a rat. They are, however, very powerful rats.
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Post by Valerias Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:58 pm

Ach, hm, a few things are on my mind, but I'll stick to JP's issue of how to deal with warlock RP in human society for the moment.

To an extent, the issue is general standards in RP. If a warlock is parading their demon, or doing obvious fel magic, and refuses to take the consequences when it's discussed in whispers (because hey, some people are new to RP or uninformed about lore) ... then they're being an idiot and I don't think a guard or anyone else has the responsibility to continue engaging them.

However, the point you raise about cover and identity is a really good one: just because someone accuses you (whether because they're a lolrp'er or because you were slightly indiscreet) doesn't mean your cover is entirely gone. It would depend on the accuser and their reputation/station in the community, and I imagine that in a setting like WoW's, there would be both a healthy amount of superstition and a healthy amount of tolerance toward things that are 'strange' but not overtly evil - and John Thomas the baker or Alan Anderson the footsoldier probably would not know fel from arcane at a glance.

So in sum: people who play warlocks have a responsibility not to make the guard's lives miserable. Since it is in fact easy to 'get away' with whatever you want - it's up to the players of warlocks to make sure that we act as if we're doing something dangerous, something that needs to be guarded in secrecy.

(PS- Despite saying 'we' I don't actually play a warlock, as Valerias is not a warlock IC, she uses the Shadow solely >> But my thoughts on shadow vs. fel RP another time.)
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Post by Lavian Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:30 pm

Will give a wall of text reply when I get back from college.
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Post by Lavian Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:22 pm

The best played warlocks are often the Senator Palpatines.

That can come with the Masquerade effect, yes. Very Happy Though I don't remember much of Palpatines character at all. Not a fan of Star wars you see.


I feel there is a strong disapproval of both the warlock -and- the guards in this quote. You know what? You're right. It is 'bull'! But I can only recommend to RP a guard for two weeks and you learn to be so cynical.

I didn't include the full comment in my original post so I see what you mean. I clearly was backing Metzan up in this and yes I do feel sorry for what the guards must go through sometimes when it comes to these warlocks, but its all down to the player.

There is a difference between Lore reality and the reality in the game. "Lore reality" is that for every warlock you beat to pulp for showing off his voidwalker, there's one less and other warlocks will think twice before doing so. The reality in the game is that for every remark you make about a voidwalker, another one is summoned, another warlock logs on and comes parading his summoning skills before you, and people shout things like "fanatics", "supression" and "freedom" because apparently the right to preserve one's never broken nose takes priority over stopping magic that could sink the city into oblivion.

Same thing. In lore reality or in real life reality if this was ever the case. Warlocks would be beaten, possibly hanged and targetted if not that for simply showing off a demon on civilian grounds. People fear what goes beyond their reach afterall, and in this case with good reason. The fact that there are people who summon demons in Stormwind and walk around with them just make me want to take out the shotgun however there are those who are not indulged into the lore as some of us and general direction to them in whispers might solve it. Smile However you do get your a-holes that wont listen and it can only be blamed on the player. Bottomline is of demon users with them active in the city is to either work with them OOCly to understand or just move on if all else fails. Not much we can do in this case. Sad

So, bringing this back to the topic... From the examples I have experienced above, I feel your view on "how warlocks should be treated" isn't workable. What do you think is a more workable solution?
Secondly, if your fel identity gets known, is it gameover? Say someone somewhere sees you create a soulshard and he comes about shouting warlock, how should people react? Aren't you "overexposing" yourselves against the lol's of some poor or intentionally poor roleplayer?

I'm not sure what you refer to about warlocks should be treated isn't workable. o_O. Mind pointing out what you mean? Also if your fel identity gets blown it all depends on those who know of it. People will treat it differently, some will ass lick the greater beings of the art or they may fear and engage or cower and get help. However in your case if he goes around yelling warlock in say a guarded area I would suggest in the ideal world tension should rise and this warlock found and hunted. While Varian maybe has brief tolerance on us it does not mean the people have to directly as Warlocks are more prone to destruction than anything else, especially when its a human involved. Erader warlocks are the best of the best and most corrupt of them all, humans tend to just be stupid and reckless and are pressured into corruption which may cause a shitstorm. And personally a warlocks shouldn't be casting in public at all, not even conjuring. And in terms of RP you have to make sure and be sincere if you are exposed to a credible reason, if something went wrong as in meta-gaming you of course have every right to deal with it, come to a conclusion or ignore the idiot and shrug it off. I've had my fair share of idiots.

Here's my take on it.. and I don't like this necessarily more than the lore approach, but it proved more 'workable'. My characters do not "understand" fel magic and thus have no way of distinguishing it ICly from any other type of magic. When it handles demon gates and souls, sure.. then he can.
Secondly, any claim from someone else that a person is a warlock is taken with a big grain of salt. "I'll make my own opinion." You don't listen too all idiots on the street do you?
As for pets, I will always ask to put them away and pretend it never happened.

Thats a good way to look at it. In my ideal setting warlocks would be known and feared and never exposed on a public city level of society and that there would be tension and burning if one was caught. Think of it as medievil england and outcries and burnings of accused witches in sense. Yes we live in a world of evident magic when it comes to WoW but fel still dominates the fear factor in lore. However to the point of that, due to how secretive of their magic they -should- be it is plausible to asume not many will know much of its simpler effects but can percieve it as atleast "Bad". And yeah the grain of salt idea should pretty much be enforced, warlocks are afterall playing the Masquerade game in city life so its hard to pick your enemies off the accusation of a commoner. Smile And pets I totally understand as they should never be out anyway.

Also can you elaborate on your later post of asking "How to deal" with warlock RP or did you mean on a general consensus?

Warlock rp is lots of fun! My own warlock is an orc: he's completely bonkers and thinks his demons are actually the spirits of his ancestors

Sounds like Krogon.

As I said before my opinion on the tolerance is that in general warlocks would be tolerated but not accepted. The base attitude to warlocks and death knights should be quite similar (at least ally side), the demons and/or the undead killed and mutilated your family and friends/your friends family/others of your race and should hardly be trusted unless they give you a VERY good reason for it. This would obviously mean warlocks would not expose themselves unless they have a good reason (or is naive/mad/delusional) since they in difference to the death knights have a choice.

I like your style of thinking there. The Masquerade effect. I love that word. Cool

On the track of openly being a warlock (while not summoning demons at the cathedral square and fel fire rains inside your local bar) I believe could work even tough you would end up an outcast either case just like a death knight should. The pure super evil character that goes doing evil things all over the place without caring if they are caught/exposed rarely works regardless of class tough after what I have seen others do.

I did the first suggestion once long time ago in the past. A handful of people knew and yes she was rediculed for it. However it was all fine, it did make some interesting branches in RP. Also yes the pure super evil character that goes around without a purpose but to JUST BE EVIL HEHEHEHEHEHHEHE doesn't work at all. Just dont go there, Geldar went there. Look where it took him.

(PS- Despite saying 'we' I don't actually play a warlock, as Valerias is not a warlock IC, she uses the Shadow solely >> But my thoughts on shadow vs. fel RP another time.)

I'm intrigued on that last part Vale. I really am. And yeah pretty much your thoughts there too Vale and an interesting insight onto the horde side Gruff and Morg. Smile

Long day at College. My brain has melted but there you go.
Lavian
Lavian

Posts : 3560
Join date : 2010-01-28
Age : 35
Location : Bergen, Norway

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Name: Lavian
Title: Dread Knight

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